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	<title>Comments on: Where the WGA strike intersects with undergraduate education in my head</title>
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	<link>http://info-fetishist.org/2008/02/04/where-the-wga-strike-intersects-with-undergraduate-education-in-my-head/</link>
	<description>yeah, it's long -- I didn't have time to make it shorter</description>
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		<title>By: yurtdisi egitim fuari</title>
		<link>http://info-fetishist.org/2008/02/04/where-the-wga-strike-intersects-with-undergraduate-education-in-my-head/#comment-273</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yurtdisi egitim fuari]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infofetishist.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-273</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why this web site do not have other languages support?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why this web site do not have other languages support?</p>
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		<title>By: Anne-Marie</title>
		<link>http://info-fetishist.org/2008/02/04/where-the-wga-strike-intersects-with-undergraduate-education-in-my-head/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne-Marie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infofetishist.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-36</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[this is all good stuff but I&#039;m just going to pull out  this one piece that I think we do agree on --

&quot;but that they may not be valued by those to whom we are supposed to be communicating what we do and how well we’re doing it.&quot;

This is what I&#039;m starting to say over and over again so I&#039;m like a broken record.  I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any &quot;may&quot; about it -- I think they are not valued by many of those people.  And in some cases I think they&#039;re actively resisted.  But I think there&#039;s another big group of people who matter who don&#039;t value those things because we&#039;re not telling them well enough why they should.  I do think this partially on us.  

I don&#039;t think we should be just capitulating to what those people already think is important - we need to be ready and willing to build a case for what we think is important.  This all intersects - you addressed it when you talked about public writing, and I addressed it when I talked about debate.  But I see a lot of our campuses floundering without any ready to take that particular standard into this particular battle.  I&#039;d assess until the cows came home if I felt like someone would go in front of the legislature or the media or whoever and say -- THIS is what WE&#039;RE doing and THIS is why it matters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is all good stuff but I&#8217;m just going to pull out  this one piece that I think we do agree on &#8211;</p>
<p>&#8220;but that they may not be valued by those to whom we are supposed to be communicating what we do and how well we’re doing it.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is what I&#8217;m starting to say over and over again so I&#8217;m like a broken record.  I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any &#8220;may&#8221; about it &#8212; I think they are not valued by many of those people.  And in some cases I think they&#8217;re actively resisted.  But I think there&#8217;s another big group of people who matter who don&#8217;t value those things because we&#8217;re not telling them well enough why they should.  I do think this partially on us.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think we should be just capitulating to what those people already think is important &#8211; we need to be ready and willing to build a case for what we think is important.  This all intersects &#8211; you addressed it when you talked about public writing, and I addressed it when I talked about debate.  But I see a lot of our campuses floundering without any ready to take that particular standard into this particular battle.  I&#8217;d assess until the cows came home if I felt like someone would go in front of the legislature or the media or whoever and say &#8212; THIS is what WE&#8217;RE doing and THIS is why it matters.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Huston</title>
		<link>http://info-fetishist.org/2008/02/04/where-the-wga-strike-intersects-with-undergraduate-education-in-my-head/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shaun Huston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infofetishist.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-35</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We&#039;ve had different versions of this conversation lately, so I don&#039;t want to belabor these points, but I do think that passion, and I&#039;ll add, meaning, are the outcomes that Geoffrey cares about. Certainly the character from the seminar that the episode focuses on is enraptured by the play, not drawn to &quot;management lessons from Hamlet&quot; or some such thing, and the suggestion is that performing the play fills some void in his life, makes his life better than it was. Can we adequately measure what that thing is, which I think is an important part of the humanistic side of the liberal arts? I don&#039;t know. Maybe we can measure other, related outcomes and that&#039;s good enough.

What Geoffrey and university faculty have to struggle with is the fact that what we see as the desired outcomes of what we do may not only be hard to measure, especially in a quantitative way (and I do see quantification being held out as the gold standard in most discussions of assessment no matter what we&#039;re told about defining our own terms or how qualitative measures are just as legitimate), but that they may not be valued by those to whom we are supposed to be communicating what we do and how well we&#039;re doing it. 

Maybe my skepticism is an artifact of how assessment is being addressed on my campus, where it&#039;s all framed in terms of satisfying &quot;outsiders,&quot; whether in the immediate sense of accrediting agencies, or in the more remote sense of the Department of Education stepping in and imposing a testing regime or national standards or whatever. In the case of Slings &amp; Arrows, &quot;we&quot; would be Geoffrey and the company and the &quot;pushers of assessment&quot; would be the board of trustees, who mostly care about turning a profit. Maybe Richard represents where we all actually have to live - trying to survive in-between imperatives, rather than living comfortably on one side or the other.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve had different versions of this conversation lately, so I don&#8217;t want to belabor these points, but I do think that passion, and I&#8217;ll add, meaning, are the outcomes that Geoffrey cares about. Certainly the character from the seminar that the episode focuses on is enraptured by the play, not drawn to &#8220;management lessons from Hamlet&#8221; or some such thing, and the suggestion is that performing the play fills some void in his life, makes his life better than it was. Can we adequately measure what that thing is, which I think is an important part of the humanistic side of the liberal arts? I don&#8217;t know. Maybe we can measure other, related outcomes and that&#8217;s good enough.</p>
<p>What Geoffrey and university faculty have to struggle with is the fact that what we see as the desired outcomes of what we do may not only be hard to measure, especially in a quantitative way (and I do see quantification being held out as the gold standard in most discussions of assessment no matter what we&#8217;re told about defining our own terms or how qualitative measures are just as legitimate), but that they may not be valued by those to whom we are supposed to be communicating what we do and how well we&#8217;re doing it. </p>
<p>Maybe my skepticism is an artifact of how assessment is being addressed on my campus, where it&#8217;s all framed in terms of satisfying &#8220;outsiders,&#8221; whether in the immediate sense of accrediting agencies, or in the more remote sense of the Department of Education stepping in and imposing a testing regime or national standards or whatever. In the case of Slings &amp; Arrows, &#8220;we&#8221; would be Geoffrey and the company and the &#8220;pushers of assessment&#8221; would be the board of trustees, who mostly care about turning a profit. Maybe Richard represents where we all actually have to live &#8211; trying to survive in-between imperatives, rather than living comfortably on one side or the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne-Marie</title>
		<link>http://info-fetishist.org/2008/02/04/where-the-wga-strike-intersects-with-undergraduate-education-in-my-head/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne-Marie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infofetishist.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-34</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dude - this is punky because answering it right takes way more than would fit in a blog comment.  I think a lot of the answer to this would depend on who you mean when you say &quot;the current pushers of assessment for &#039;accountability.&#039;&quot;  Of course, it&#039;s possible to come up with outcomes that get at high-level cognitive activity, but to measure them, one still needs to rely on the expertise of faculty.  Because passion probably wouldn&#039;t be taken seriously as a learning outcome - but is that really the end of what&#039;s going on here?  I mean, if we had students who were passionate but who wouldn&#039;t or couldn&#039;t do ANYTHING else with what went on in class would that be okay?  What would that even look like?  Don&#039;t we  expect that passion connects with other things - the ability to think in new ways, draw new connections, etc?

Action verbs like create, infer, transform, interpret - they can be the basis of measurable outcomes, and there&#039;s lots of examples of assessment tools in Angelo and Cross alone  to get at those outcomes on a course- or assignment- level.  But student work isn&#039;t going to be uniform or standard, and we&#039;re going to have to trust faculty to evaluate, and we&#039;re going to have to collaborate across campuses to make it meaningful.  

So yes - I suspect the &quot;current pushers&quot; you&#039;re talking about might have a problem with that.  Which doesn&#039;t mean they&#039;re right about what is measurable or even what we should be trying to measure.  I think my real answer to that question is yes, people who don&#039;t see the value of a liberal education would have trouble with these connections - which is why we shouldn&#039;t let them define our goals for us.  Meaningful assessment isn&#039;t about giving ourselves A&#039;s for doing what others want - it&#039;s about deciding what we value and figuring out ways to tell ourselves how we can help students get there better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dude &#8211; this is punky because answering it right takes way more than would fit in a blog comment.  I think a lot of the answer to this would depend on who you mean when you say &#8220;the current pushers of assessment for &#8216;accountability.&#8217;&#8221;  Of course, it&#8217;s possible to come up with outcomes that get at high-level cognitive activity, but to measure them, one still needs to rely on the expertise of faculty.  Because passion probably wouldn&#8217;t be taken seriously as a learning outcome &#8211; but is that really the end of what&#8217;s going on here?  I mean, if we had students who were passionate but who wouldn&#8217;t or couldn&#8217;t do ANYTHING else with what went on in class would that be okay?  What would that even look like?  Don&#8217;t we  expect that passion connects with other things &#8211; the ability to think in new ways, draw new connections, etc?</p>
<p>Action verbs like create, infer, transform, interpret &#8211; they can be the basis of measurable outcomes, and there&#8217;s lots of examples of assessment tools in Angelo and Cross alone  to get at those outcomes on a course- or assignment- level.  But student work isn&#8217;t going to be uniform or standard, and we&#8217;re going to have to trust faculty to evaluate, and we&#8217;re going to have to collaborate across campuses to make it meaningful.  </p>
<p>So yes &#8211; I suspect the &#8220;current pushers&#8221; you&#8217;re talking about might have a problem with that.  Which doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;re right about what is measurable or even what we should be trying to measure.  I think my real answer to that question is yes, people who don&#8217;t see the value of a liberal education would have trouble with these connections &#8211; which is why we shouldn&#8217;t let them define our goals for us.  Meaningful assessment isn&#8217;t about giving ourselves A&#8217;s for doing what others want &#8211; it&#8217;s about deciding what we value and figuring out ways to tell ourselves how we can help students get there better.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Huston</title>
		<link>http://info-fetishist.org/2008/02/04/where-the-wga-strike-intersects-with-undergraduate-education-in-my-head/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shaun Huston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 15:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infofetishist.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-33</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Can you articulate an &quot;outcome&quot; and a way of &quot;measuring&quot; what happens in that seminar that would satisfy the current pushers of assessment for &quot;accountability&quot;? We&#039;re always told that we can control how we&#039;re judged, but somehow, I don&#039;t think that, say, &quot;passion&quot; would be taken seriously as a learning outcome. The way these conversations go, the fact that all of those people in the seminar have jobs where they get to go to retreats like that would be more likely to show up in assessments than what Shakespeare means to them. If you can&#039;t track the connections in this post, there&#039;s a good chance that you won&#039;t see much value in a liberal arts education. And isn&#039;t that the problem?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you articulate an &#8220;outcome&#8221; and a way of &#8220;measuring&#8221; what happens in that seminar that would satisfy the current pushers of assessment for &#8220;accountability&#8221;? We&#8217;re always told that we can control how we&#8217;re judged, but somehow, I don&#8217;t think that, say, &#8220;passion&#8221; would be taken seriously as a learning outcome. The way these conversations go, the fact that all of those people in the seminar have jobs where they get to go to retreats like that would be more likely to show up in assessments than what Shakespeare means to them. If you can&#8217;t track the connections in this post, there&#8217;s a good chance that you won&#8217;t see much value in a liberal arts education. And isn&#8217;t that the problem?</p>
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